F\n¡v kzImcy {SÌn-Ã: ]mÌÀ sI. kn. tXmakv
Category: Current Affairs & News
Publish Date: Nov 7, 2011
Views: 7393
I do not have private trusts - Pastor. K.C Thomas.
-* F\n¡v kzImcy {SÌnÃ
* ss__nÄ kvIqÄ, kvIqÄ F¶nh tem¡Â k`-bpsS DS-a-Ø-X-bn-emWv
* 10 tImSn cq] hne-a-Xn-¡p¶ 16000 Sqft \mep-\ne sI«nShpw 20 skâv Øehpw k`-bpsS t]cnÂ
B[mcw sNbvXp sImSp-¯p.
* F\nbvt¡m IpSpw-_mw-K-§Ät¡m bmsXm-c-h-Im-ihpw CÃ.
* s]s´-t¡m-kvXnsâ ]mc-¼-cy-¯n Rm³ Dd-¨p-\n¡p¶p
* B`-c-W-[m-c-Ws¯bpw Bßob cwKs¯ \h {]h-W-X-I-sfbpw AwKo-I-cn-¡p-¶nÃ
* ]c-kv]c hntZzjw hfÀ¯p¶Xpw {Kq¸p-IÄ DS-se-Sp-¡p-hm³ Imc-W-hpamb Ct¸m-gs¯ sXc-sª-
Sp¸v coXnbv¡v amäw-h-c-Ww.
sF. ]n. kn. tIcfm tÌäv sshkv {]kn-Uâv ]mÌÀ sI. kn. tXma-kp-ambn _neo-thgvkv tPW No^v FUn-äÀ kmwIp«n amXyp \S-¯nb A`n-apJ kw`m-jWw.
hmbn-¡p-I. 2011 \hw-_À 10 þ t]Pv : 03
* ss__nÄ kvIqÄ, kvIqÄ F¶nh tem¡Â k`-bpsS DS-a-Ø-X-bn-emWv
* 10 tImSn cq] hne-a-Xn-¡p¶ 16000 Sqft \mep-\ne sI«nShpw 20 skâv Øehpw k`-bpsS t]cnÂ
B[mcw sNbvXp sImSp-¯p.
* F\nbvt¡m IpSpw-_mw-K-§Ät¡m bmsXm-c-h-Im-ihpw CÃ.
* s]s´-t¡m-kvXnsâ ]mc-¼-cy-¯n Rm³ Dd-¨p-\n¡p¶p
* B`-c-W-[m-c-Ws¯bpw Bßob cwKs¯ \h {]h-W-X-I-sfbpw AwKo-I-cn-¡p-¶nÃ
* ]c-kv]c hntZzjw hfÀ¯p¶Xpw {Kq¸p-IÄ DS-se-Sp-¡p-hm³ Imc-W-hpamb Ct¸m-gs¯ sXc-sª-
Sp¸v coXnbv¡v amäw-h-c-Ww.
sF. ]n. kn. tIcfm tÌäv sshkv {]kn-Uâv ]mÌÀ sI. kn. tXma-kp-ambn _neo-thgvkv tPW No^v FUn-äÀ kmwIp«n amXyp \S-¯nb A`n-apJ kw`m-jWw.
hmbn-¡p-I. 2011 \hw-_À 10 þ t]Pv : 03
Displaying 63 Comments
The views and opinions expressed in the comment section are strictly those of the comment authors alone and do not necessarily reflect and represent the views and opinions of Believer's Journal.
a. s. mathew (November 14, 2011)
thank you both joy chembkasseril and
kunjappy for your inspiring motivation.
what jesus said is " love" one another.
kunjappy, that word you have used
"we love you" was a big volume. god
bless you all.
thank you both joy chembkasseril and
kunjappy for your inspiring motivation.
what jesus said is " love" one another.
kunjappy, that word you have used
"we love you" was a big volume. god
bless you all.
0
kunjappy (November 13, 2011)
AS Mathew...we love you. Don't go anywhere!! Keep writing.
AS Mathew...we love you. Don't go anywhere!! Keep writing.
0
joy chembakasderil, usa. (November 13, 2011)
to a s mathew- you are fine in what you doing, and try responding to the more crucial ones. shhh- you do not have to respond to everything. try writing consistently. god bless you !
to a s mathew- you are fine in what you doing, and try responding to the more crucial ones. shhh- you do not have to respond to everything. try writing consistently. god bless you !
+3
a. s. mathew (November 13, 2011)
brother joy chembakkaserril: i have never written a comment telling that
the believers should be poor. if you read my old comments, i have clearly
indicated that our god is a god of
blessings, and when we serve god with a
genuine heart and share out blessings with the needy, god will bless us abundantly.
but, if i am spending my energy in
preaching that as the main gospel, then
my ministry is totally misguided and
misdirected. the "prosperity gospel"
has been used by certain people to get
rich with the material things of the world. the gospel or the bible shouldn't
be taken as a source for making money.
brother joy chembakkaserril: i have never written a comment telling that
the believers should be poor. if you read my old comments, i have clearly
indicated that our god is a god of
blessings, and when we serve god with a
genuine heart and share out blessings with the needy, god will bless us abundantly.
but, if i am spending my energy in
preaching that as the main gospel, then
my ministry is totally misguided and
misdirected. the "prosperity gospel"
has been used by certain people to get
rich with the material things of the world. the gospel or the bible shouldn't
be taken as a source for making money.
0
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 12, 2011)
to sothrum- contd -1, wearing it is the strict adherence of the lord commandment. what is lords-commandment ? there shall be no other god besides me. under the sky do not make a statue of anything and kneel in front of them.. if the ornaments you wearing is not going forfeit or sacrifice or compromise your devotion and faith in god, you are okay. it's not the wearing or adorning of an ornament that makes it wrong, but the way you handle it makes it right or wrong, got it. in future try to wear better jewelry and the pastor can wear better clothing too. as far as i am concerned, i have no fascination for either one. i am okay being whom i am.
to sothrum- contd -1, wearing it is the strict adherence of the lord commandment. what is lords-commandment ? there shall be no other god besides me. under the sky do not make a statue of anything and kneel in front of them.. if the ornaments you wearing is not going forfeit or sacrifice or compromise your devotion and faith in god, you are okay. it's not the wearing or adorning of an ornament that makes it wrong, but the way you handle it makes it right or wrong, got it. in future try to wear better jewelry and the pastor can wear better clothing too. as far as i am concerned, i have no fascination for either one. i am okay being whom i am.
+1
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 12, 2011)
to sothrum- if i may answer your question as to who is a sinner- when you wearing an ornament worth 5 dollars vs a pastor wearing a two piece or three piece suit. first of all anything that is not valuable cannot be considered as an ornament, but since the stuff you wearing has the shape of an ornament, it can be considered as an ornament, depends how you and your society look at it. secondly, why would you want to bring in a pastor on the opposing end, you look like you want to give a hard time to them. the pastors or bishops and all the clergy deserves a certain level of respect, and we are supposed to respect them, because they are ordained to do lord's work and its going to be a curse on us if we try to make fun of them, think about it,i leave it to you for a reconsideration. we may crticize them, but don't make fun of them. i think i find you in good-spirits accepting my view point. back to the subject who is a sinner ? my judgement is nobody is a sinner, if you preceive-contd 1
to sothrum- if i may answer your question as to who is a sinner- when you wearing an ornament worth 5 dollars vs a pastor wearing a two piece or three piece suit. first of all anything that is not valuable cannot be considered as an ornament, but since the stuff you wearing has the shape of an ornament, it can be considered as an ornament, depends how you and your society look at it. secondly, why would you want to bring in a pastor on the opposing end, you look like you want to give a hard time to them. the pastors or bishops and all the clergy deserves a certain level of respect, and we are supposed to respect them, because they are ordained to do lord's work and its going to be a curse on us if we try to make fun of them, think about it,i leave it to you for a reconsideration. we may crticize them, but don't make fun of them. i think i find you in good-spirits accepting my view point. back to the subject who is a sinner ? my judgement is nobody is a sinner, if you preceive-contd 1
+2
a. s. mathew (November 12, 2011)
dear brothers and sisters. i feel like i have written too many comments, so i will be very cautious to commend far less. this is the only humble request i have to you all, that we all must be united
under the banner of jesus christ and
march forward in love and unity to reach the unreached society with the
gospel of christ. also, we all must
try to do our best to put james 1:27
into our personal life on a daily basis.
god bless you all.
dear brothers and sisters. i feel like i have written too many comments, so i will be very cautious to commend far less. this is the only humble request i have to you all, that we all must be united
under the banner of jesus christ and
march forward in love and unity to reach the unreached society with the
gospel of christ. also, we all must
try to do our best to put james 1:27
into our personal life on a daily basis.
god bless you all.
0
a. s. mathew (November 12, 2011)
the praize: thank you so much for your
inspiring words. our family had an open
attitude towards other denominations, and i grew up with a strong non-denominational spirit. god spared my life many times, and as a young boy of
10, gave my life to jesus christ. when the lord gave me to help others and their ministries in a humble way, i have
never asked them a question about their
denominational affiliations. only jesus
can change lives, and all the followers
of christ must do everything possible to
spread the "gospel". if the believers
of different denominations are fighting
for silly doctrinal issues, it is simply
wasting our time and energy. many people passing in front of us might not
have heard the plain way of salvation even for the first time. i have watched
the terrible arguments about "ornaments"
"women's rights in the church" "holy
spirit" etc in between the believers of
ident
the praize: thank you so much for your
inspiring words. our family had an open
attitude towards other denominations, and i grew up with a strong non-denominational spirit. god spared my life many times, and as a young boy of
10, gave my life to jesus christ. when the lord gave me to help others and their ministries in a humble way, i have
never asked them a question about their
denominational affiliations. only jesus
can change lives, and all the followers
of christ must do everything possible to
spread the "gospel". if the believers
of different denominations are fighting
for silly doctrinal issues, it is simply
wasting our time and energy. many people passing in front of us might not
have heard the plain way of salvation even for the first time. i have watched
the terrible arguments about "ornaments"
"women's rights in the church" "holy
spirit" etc in between the believers of
ident
0
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 12, 2011)
mr a s mathew- i am an advocate of the prosperity gospel. i think god wants us to prosper in every way, spiritually and financially. we should also be able to share our blessings with the unfortunate brothers. the key is how you prosper. if your world is built up of bunch of lies, and that in the name of gospel ???? there cannot be a bigger shame than that ! the blessings shouldn't be a temptation sacrificing your spiritual devotion to god, always humble yourselfs so that the good lord can use you and be a blessing to others !
mr a s mathew- i am an advocate of the prosperity gospel. i think god wants us to prosper in every way, spiritually and financially. we should also be able to share our blessings with the unfortunate brothers. the key is how you prosper. if your world is built up of bunch of lies, and that in the name of gospel ???? there cannot be a bigger shame than that ! the blessings shouldn't be a temptation sacrificing your spiritual devotion to god, always humble yourselfs so that the good lord can use you and be a blessing to others !
+2
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 12, 2011)
Correction _ on my first conversation to Dr Elijah_ towards the middle of the paragraph-were it says--- behavioral side we don't see that in malayalee pentecostals, at that time only "metal ornaments" that matters_ please re-read that way -thank you- its not me the computer !
Correction _ on my first conversation to Dr Elijah_ towards the middle of the paragraph-were it says--- behavioral side we don't see that in malayalee pentecostals, at that time only "metal ornaments" that matters_ please re-read that way -thank you- its not me the computer !
+1
jobin (November 11, 2011)
neethiman pana pole thazzakkum....pinne ariyamalloooo pastor......
neethiman pana pole thazzakkum....pinne ariyamalloooo pastor......
+1
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 11, 2011)
Dr ELIJAH- contd-1, grandmas and grandpas didn't do it, wearing ornament for purity sake, and so on, they didn't use it mostly because of ignorance and there might be some who didn't us it for simplicity sake. We are not advocating using it nor we are against using it. Our prepective is based on the understanding that, it is not the use of it, but the way how you perceive handling it based on GOD'S command, that makes it right or wrong. From the BEHAVIORAL point malayalee pentacostals denounce ornaments but are seen using all other expensive, fancies of life, and the call it the ideal spirituallity, which is wrong. This phenomenon is seen only among malayalee pentecostals.
Dr ELIJAH- contd-1, grandmas and grandpas didn't do it, wearing ornament for purity sake, and so on, they didn't use it mostly because of ignorance and there might be some who didn't us it for simplicity sake. We are not advocating using it nor we are against using it. Our prepective is based on the understanding that, it is not the use of it, but the way how you perceive handling it based on GOD'S command, that makes it right or wrong. From the BEHAVIORAL point malayalee pentacostals denounce ornaments but are seen using all other expensive, fancies of life, and the call it the ideal spirituallity, which is wrong. This phenomenon is seen only among malayalee pentecostals.
+2
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 11, 2011)
dr elijah- the point me and mr a s mathew is trying to make is that, say for aurguments sake most sensible malayalee pentecostals may agree like you said, " ornaments are not just the metal ornaments, but anything that is being used, to enhance one appearance to impress others can be considered ornaments, and the use of it is against spirituality and so on and so forth. but from a behavioral side we don't see that in malayalee pentecostals, at that time only theetal ornaments that matters, that they are using everything else, all other expensive items, why is that ? it's a behavior only among malayalee pentecostals. when i went to north india, the sight that i saw in an aaradhana for the first time almost startled me, that i had to suspend my personal aaradhana and watch what was going on. the north indians, they were all wearing ornaments and praising god and even speaking in tongues, that i could feel the real presence of god. so please don't tell us that our fore-fathers-contd-1
dr elijah- the point me and mr a s mathew is trying to make is that, say for aurguments sake most sensible malayalee pentecostals may agree like you said, " ornaments are not just the metal ornaments, but anything that is being used, to enhance one appearance to impress others can be considered ornaments, and the use of it is against spirituality and so on and so forth. but from a behavioral side we don't see that in malayalee pentecostals, at that time only theetal ornaments that matters, that they are using everything else, all other expensive items, why is that ? it's a behavior only among malayalee pentecostals. when i went to north india, the sight that i saw in an aaradhana for the first time almost startled me, that i had to suspend my personal aaradhana and watch what was going on. the north indians, they were all wearing ornaments and praising god and even speaking in tongues, that i could feel the real presence of god. so please don't tell us that our fore-fathers-contd-1
+2
a. s. mathew (November 11, 2011)
While Oral Roberts was a student at the
Philips University (Pastor K. E. Abraham got his D.D. from there, now closed), one day Oral Roberts read 3 John verses 2 "Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers".
This verse was the foundation of the
prosperity gospel. Oral Roberts began to preach it, became very prosperous, and his disciples like Kenneth Copeland
and others became very rich.
In Kerala, the old time leaders
overemphasized certain things and made
big doctrinal walls out of them.
Heb 12:2 where we read JESUS as the author and finisher of our faith.
Feeding the 5 thousand men and their families have recorded in all the four
gospels. The disciples (Mathew 14:13)
collectively made the suggestion to send them away, but Jesus was against
that idea, and provided food for them
all. How we respond to the averting attitudes of the Apostles
While Oral Roberts was a student at the
Philips University (Pastor K. E. Abraham got his D.D. from there, now closed), one day Oral Roberts read 3 John verses 2 "Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers".
This verse was the foundation of the
prosperity gospel. Oral Roberts began to preach it, became very prosperous, and his disciples like Kenneth Copeland
and others became very rich.
In Kerala, the old time leaders
overemphasized certain things and made
big doctrinal walls out of them.
Heb 12:2 where we read JESUS as the author and finisher of our faith.
Feeding the 5 thousand men and their families have recorded in all the four
gospels. The disciples (Mathew 14:13)
collectively made the suggestion to send them away, but Jesus was against
that idea, and provided food for them
all. How we respond to the averting attitudes of the Apostles
0
the praize (November 11, 2011)
@joy chembakasseril, usa,dhanyawaad for those kind words of encouragement, i always strive to be practical and try to relate to a lifestyle per the BIBLE,most of the times I am a failure. I am not a fundamentalist.
@asm,your practical and inclusive approach has been very impressive,learning from you to be more receptive to the society around beyond denominational barriers,Christ is above all,what a God we serve !!!Blessings
@joy chembakasseril, usa,dhanyawaad for those kind words of encouragement, i always strive to be practical and try to relate to a lifestyle per the BIBLE,most of the times I am a failure. I am not a fundamentalist.
@asm,your practical and inclusive approach has been very impressive,learning from you to be more receptive to the society around beyond denominational barriers,Christ is above all,what a God we serve !!!Blessings
+1
the praize (November 11, 2011)
To all respected faithfuls,let us not impose our thoughts on everybody wrt a subject which is not a doctrine in the BIBLE,we are failing to understand that,these non doctrinal teachings are restricting globalisation of the church vision,envisioned by God himself,as i posted in my earlier posts,our faith in God should not and never be influenced by trivial matters like wearing gold or wearing an expensive attire,having said that never forget the NEW JERUSALEM and its description in revelation ch 21.To summarize,modesty should be the lifestyle of true christians irrespective of wearing jewellary or not.It should be a choice more to do with individuals,and cannot be dictated by few kunjachens and let me also add there will be no kunjachens in heaven and that, will a true surprise.
To all respected faithfuls,let us not impose our thoughts on everybody wrt a subject which is not a doctrine in the BIBLE,we are failing to understand that,these non doctrinal teachings are restricting globalisation of the church vision,envisioned by God himself,as i posted in my earlier posts,our faith in God should not and never be influenced by trivial matters like wearing gold or wearing an expensive attire,having said that never forget the NEW JERUSALEM and its description in revelation ch 21.To summarize,modesty should be the lifestyle of true christians irrespective of wearing jewellary or not.It should be a choice more to do with individuals,and cannot be dictated by few kunjachens and let me also add there will be no kunjachens in heaven and that, will a true surprise.
0
a. s. mathew (November 11, 2011)
KUNJACHAN: You might be a hard-core
old time Brethren believer. It will take a long list to name the great women of history who were used by God
to do greater things for His kingdom.
I couldn't read anything as you have stated
in Acts 2:14. Peter was talking entirely about a different subject called the " Holy Spirit". Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman at the well, she went to the town and told them about the saviour (instant evangelist). In between the educatied Paul and Peter, they had severe frictions with relation to many theological issues. If we are trying to hang on to either side as a major
issue, we are simply wasting our time, instead of doing greater things for the kingdom of God. God is not a
respector of person, He can use anybody
for the kingdom business, and has used
thousands of godly women down through the history.
KUNJACHAN: You might be a hard-core
old time Brethren believer. It will take a long list to name the great women of history who were used by God
to do greater things for His kingdom.
I couldn't read anything as you have stated
in Acts 2:14. Peter was talking entirely about a different subject called the " Holy Spirit". Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman at the well, she went to the town and told them about the saviour (instant evangelist). In between the educatied Paul and Peter, they had severe frictions with relation to many theological issues. If we are trying to hang on to either side as a major
issue, we are simply wasting our time, instead of doing greater things for the kingdom of God. God is not a
respector of person, He can use anybody
for the kingdom business, and has used
thousands of godly women down through the history.
0
a. s. mathew (November 11, 2011)
ELIJAH: That is true. There are hundreds of things in our life, both
tangible and non-tangible which can
drive us to the dangerous spirit of
worldiness.
ELIJAH: That is true. There are hundreds of things in our life, both
tangible and non-tangible which can
drive us to the dangerous spirit of
worldiness.
+1
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 11, 2011)
i share the same opinion of mr john nilambur about pastor k c thomas ! he is a true servant of god !he is very industrious in the mission field. my god bless him in his efforts.
i share the same opinion of mr john nilambur about pastor k c thomas ! he is a true servant of god !he is very industrious in the mission field. my god bless him in his efforts.
+2
elijah (November 11, 2011)
To AS Mathew:
My point re: worldliness was not limited to ornaments alone. The short definition of 'ornament' is 'anything that enhances the appearance of a person or thing'. So whatever; be it precious/other metals, clothing-house-car if they are used to enhance a person's appearance to attract, that too should be considered ornament. Meeshakku pinnile aasha moshamanenkil athum, if clean-shave is done to impress someone (to pretend that he is spiritual) too should be considered as "mosham". These things are simply like the tip of the iceberg that wrecked Titanic. Much more than what is exposed outside (in terms of above items) is there underneath these tips of un-spiritual icebergs.
Pl take this in the right spiritual perspective and let us encourage each other to observe simplicity as the apostles' teachings. Let our leaders be examples of simplicity. Thanks and God bless you. Dr. Elijah.
To AS Mathew:
My point re: worldliness was not limited to ornaments alone. The short definition of 'ornament' is 'anything that enhances the appearance of a person or thing'. So whatever; be it precious/other metals, clothing-house-car if they are used to enhance a person's appearance to attract, that too should be considered ornament. Meeshakku pinnile aasha moshamanenkil athum, if clean-shave is done to impress someone (to pretend that he is spiritual) too should be considered as "mosham". These things are simply like the tip of the iceberg that wrecked Titanic. Much more than what is exposed outside (in terms of above items) is there underneath these tips of un-spiritual icebergs.
Pl take this in the right spiritual perspective and let us encourage each other to observe simplicity as the apostles' teachings. Let our leaders be examples of simplicity. Thanks and God bless you. Dr. Elijah.
+3
kunjachan (November 11, 2011)
No argument can stand to supersede the command, "do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over man".It has confirmation by the verse acts,2:14 , Peter stood with other 11 to preach. There were prominent women among the 120 gathered, but they were not participated in preaching. Let us obey what is written. I conclude.
No argument can stand to supersede the command, "do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over man".It has confirmation by the verse acts,2:14 , Peter stood with other 11 to preach. There were prominent women among the 120 gathered, but they were not participated in preaching. Let us obey what is written. I conclude.
+1
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 11, 2011)
@ the praize- i have a correction on the paragraph-- i see a class/quality- towards the end ___ please read it as ornaments are referred to as "aaa-bharanam" and not "aaa-bharam", thank you.
@ the praize- i have a correction on the paragraph-- i see a class/quality- towards the end ___ please read it as ornaments are referred to as "aaa-bharanam" and not "aaa-bharam", thank you.
0
tvm guy (November 11, 2011)
Stop your manakuna business with mathanga..
Stop your manakuna business with mathanga..
0
a. s. mathew (November 11, 2011)
ELIJAH: You have clearly pointed out the danger of " worldiness. If you are
trying to attach "worldiness" only with
the ornaments, that is totally a onesided argument. We can have a moderate dress, on the other hand, we
can have a dress several times expensive. We can have a basic car,
on the other hand, we can have 20 times
expensive cars. If some religious
leaders are putting on very expensive
clothings-houses-cars-1st class travel;
none of them are "worldiness" but if
somebody is wearing ornaments is the worst "worldiness".
ELIJAH: You have clearly pointed out the danger of " worldiness. If you are
trying to attach "worldiness" only with
the ornaments, that is totally a onesided argument. We can have a moderate dress, on the other hand, we
can have a dress several times expensive. We can have a basic car,
on the other hand, we can have 20 times
expensive cars. If some religious
leaders are putting on very expensive
clothings-houses-cars-1st class travel;
none of them are "worldiness" but if
somebody is wearing ornaments is the worst "worldiness".
+4
a. s. mathew (November 11, 2011)
many will not agree with my attitude,
but i must tell it openly.
if the missionaries of charity or the
catholic church is conducting a medical
camp in my village, i will go there and
try to do something which i can to make
the camp successful, because they are
doing that to exalt the name of jesus
christ. when our love to jesus is
total and fully concentrated, ministries
conducted by any denomination will
inspire us, and we will have to stand
wtih them. in the u.s., there are over
250 denominations, and they all have
jesus as their god, but it is very hard
to get together and work together in
the kingdom business. this disease is
far worse in india.
many will not agree with my attitude,
but i must tell it openly.
if the missionaries of charity or the
catholic church is conducting a medical
camp in my village, i will go there and
try to do something which i can to make
the camp successful, because they are
doing that to exalt the name of jesus
christ. when our love to jesus is
total and fully concentrated, ministries
conducted by any denomination will
inspire us, and we will have to stand
wtih them. in the u.s., there are over
250 denominations, and they all have
jesus as their god, but it is very hard
to get together and work together in
the kingdom business. this disease is
far worse in india.
+1
a. s. mathew (November 11, 2011)
the praize: i do sincerely thank you for your touching comment in response to my comment. today i read 1 thessalonians chapter 4:11-12 " that you also aspire to lead a quite life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hand, as we commanded you may walk properly towards those who are outside, and you may lack nothing". a great sermon can be created out of this and can get some followers to lead a life of "monastry life" "selfish people" " and forcing the followers to work only in the "handloom" business. many of such directions given by the religious leaders of those times were overly emphasized by the leader later on, and a huge doctrine was established on it. all thise "minor turned major" doctrines are directly and indirectly causing divisions in the church (body of christ). jesus commanded us to love one another, but we have miserably failed in that great command. contd: 2
the praize: i do sincerely thank you for your touching comment in response to my comment. today i read 1 thessalonians chapter 4:11-12 " that you also aspire to lead a quite life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hand, as we commanded you may walk properly towards those who are outside, and you may lack nothing". a great sermon can be created out of this and can get some followers to lead a life of "monastry life" "selfish people" " and forcing the followers to work only in the "handloom" business. many of such directions given by the religious leaders of those times were overly emphasized by the leader later on, and a huge doctrine was established on it. all thise "minor turned major" doctrines are directly and indirectly causing divisions in the church (body of christ). jesus commanded us to love one another, but we have miserably failed in that great command. contd: 2
+1
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 11, 2011)
@ the praize_contd-2, that there may be another possibility of temptations in future so, better not touch it or wear it. but my question is what about the other expensive items that they are wearing or using,isn't there a temptation existing there too ? as far as i am concerned,i don't wear ornaments because it don't fascinate me and i am not going to criticize anybody wearing it. i am not for it or against it. but,there is a saying in malayalam, i do not know if you came across it---- " addhikamaayaal amrrethum vishham ", meaning anything that's too much in you or on you, is going to spoil you,think about it. i heard a few asian houses being robbed in united states and india because of it,the ornaments,so why would you want it,especially in today's world, were, people have no respect for each other and its just- money-money-money-factor, grab valuables or money from somebody. in olden days when we are short of money,we used to go and ask respectful for money, now its snatching!
@ the praize_contd-2, that there may be another possibility of temptations in future so, better not touch it or wear it. but my question is what about the other expensive items that they are wearing or using,isn't there a temptation existing there too ? as far as i am concerned,i don't wear ornaments because it don't fascinate me and i am not going to criticize anybody wearing it. i am not for it or against it. but,there is a saying in malayalam, i do not know if you came across it---- " addhikamaayaal amrrethum vishham ", meaning anything that's too much in you or on you, is going to spoil you,think about it. i heard a few asian houses being robbed in united states and india because of it,the ornaments,so why would you want it,especially in today's world, were, people have no respect for each other and its just- money-money-money-factor, grab valuables or money from somebody. in olden days when we are short of money,we used to go and ask respectful for money, now its snatching!
+2
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 11, 2011)
@ the praize- contd_1, the idea i am trying to convey to you is- "nothing should be a "temptation" to you as far as your "spirituality" or "faith in god" is concerned. the person's "conscience" is the issue. if your is hurting you don't touch it, don't wear it. "njaan allaathe veeroru daivam innakkundaakaruthe, ennaanu yahoovayaaya daivam paranjhathu". aakaashatthinukeezhil yaathoru vasthukkalludeeayum prathima oondaakkukayoo vanaghukayoo cheyyaruthea, bible tells you that too. so no wonder when the israelites at mt sanai made a calf, which becomes a prathima then and with ornaments- god told them to "cast-them-away". israelites when they made that prathima or statue with gold, that statue of the calf became so appealing to them and it became a "temptation" for them that they all started kneeling down in front of it and worshiping it. god told them to cast-them-away, only because they had a temptation to it. so thats the reason why the pentecostals think- contd_2
@ the praize- contd_1, the idea i am trying to convey to you is- "nothing should be a "temptation" to you as far as your "spirituality" or "faith in god" is concerned. the person's "conscience" is the issue. if your is hurting you don't touch it, don't wear it. "njaan allaathe veeroru daivam innakkundaakaruthe, ennaanu yahoovayaaya daivam paranjhathu". aakaashatthinukeezhil yaathoru vasthukkalludeeayum prathima oondaakkukayoo vanaghukayoo cheyyaruthea, bible tells you that too. so no wonder when the israelites at mt sanai made a calf, which becomes a prathima then and with ornaments- god told them to "cast-them-away". israelites when they made that prathima or statue with gold, that statue of the calf became so appealing to them and it became a "temptation" for them that they all started kneeling down in front of it and worshiping it. god told them to cast-them-away, only because they had a temptation to it. so thats the reason why the pentecostals think- contd_2
+1
john, nilambur (November 11, 2011)
pastor kc thomas seems to be a sincere man of god unlike his brother doc. kc john :)
if what he declared is true indeed, his days are numbered in ipc for sure because the top brass of ipc cannot digest this disclosure.
if they have the guts, i challenge every one of them in particular and all other pentecostal leaders to come out and give a disclosure like pr. kc thomas. i am sure, no one will come forward.
best of luck to bj team.
pastor kc thomas seems to be a sincere man of god unlike his brother doc. kc john :)
if what he declared is true indeed, his days are numbered in ipc for sure because the top brass of ipc cannot digest this disclosure.
if they have the guts, i challenge every one of them in particular and all other pentecostal leaders to come out and give a disclosure like pr. kc thomas. i am sure, no one will come forward.
best of luck to bj team.
+3
elijah (November 11, 2011)
Dear ones who advocate use of ornaments etc. by Christian believers, may I ask you a simple question? How many grams of gold or ornaments are permitted. The outward appearance really exposes what really is in your inside. Those who really love the Lord Jesus Christ and confess that he suffered on the cross to set us free from the bondage of sin, the gladness of His salvation won't even allow the worldliness to go along. Although water is needed for to keep a boat afloat, what will happen if you allow that 'useful' water enter your boat? Pl do not forget that the very reason behind your existence today is the sacrifice our forefathers have done for the sake of their defending their faith in Christ Jesus. If you say they were ignorants, dear ones: you are deceiving yourselves. Please fear GOD. Pl read 1 Cor 5:6-7 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that oa little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
Dear ones who advocate use of ornaments etc. by Christian believers, may I ask you a simple question? How many grams of gold or ornaments are permitted. The outward appearance really exposes what really is in your inside. Those who really love the Lord Jesus Christ and confess that he suffered on the cross to set us free from the bondage of sin, the gladness of His salvation won't even allow the worldliness to go along. Although water is needed for to keep a boat afloat, what will happen if you allow that 'useful' water enter your boat? Pl do not forget that the very reason behind your existence today is the sacrifice our forefathers have done for the sake of their defending their faith in Christ Jesus. If you say they were ignorants, dear ones: you are deceiving yourselves. Please fear GOD. Pl read 1 Cor 5:6-7 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that oa little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
+3
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 11, 2011)
@ the praize- i see a "class/quality"in your writing-behavior and i had to applaud and appreciate that. the issue about 'ornaments' are a misquoted and misinterpreted one for years and generations among pentecostals. its been instilled in their minds for years and years not to use it and they have become that way and now they think its so wrong even to look at it,even to think about it,even to touch it, let alone the fact of wearing it. people similar to kunjachen are trained and taught to react that way, because they think a reaction similar to that is a show of spirituality, i don't blame any kunjachens. they all become so emotional when it comes to "aa-bharanam" or "ornaments". they are so scared about wearing "aa-bharam", because they think if they wear it, its going to rule over them. look at the way ornaments are being named - they are been referred as- "aaa-bharam", right! the point is the person wearing it should be in control of himself contd_1
@ the praize- i see a "class/quality"in your writing-behavior and i had to applaud and appreciate that. the issue about 'ornaments' are a misquoted and misinterpreted one for years and generations among pentecostals. its been instilled in their minds for years and years not to use it and they have become that way and now they think its so wrong even to look at it,even to think about it,even to touch it, let alone the fact of wearing it. people similar to kunjachen are trained and taught to react that way, because they think a reaction similar to that is a show of spirituality, i don't blame any kunjachens. they all become so emotional when it comes to "aa-bharanam" or "ornaments". they are so scared about wearing "aa-bharam", because they think if they wear it, its going to rule over them. look at the way ornaments are being named - they are been referred as- "aaa-bharam", right! the point is the person wearing it should be in control of himself contd_1
+2
the praize (November 11, 2011)
@asm, I must admit your thoughts are truly an eye opener,and i am in complete agreement with your thought of universality which is above denominations.Blessings
@asm, I must admit your thoughts are truly an eye opener,and i am in complete agreement with your thought of universality which is above denominations.Blessings
-1
a. s. mathew (November 10, 2011)
as a young boy, while attending the
maramon convention which is the largest
christain gather in asia, hardly i could see the pentecostal pastors and
many believers. (for than four decades back, it may be different now). likewise, i never could see any episcopal church priests at kumbanad
i.p.c. convention, which is the largest
pentecostal gathering. ( from the bible society, i saw one csi priest in
one convention). in maramon, some of the internationaly known evangelists and
pastors like dr. kagawa of japan, dr. paul rees, dr. bob pierce (founder of the world vision) dr. e. stanly jones,
dr. edmund haggai (founder of the haggai
institute in singapore where believers-
pastors-priests-bishops have participated) etc have preached. even though, in both christian gatherings,
none other than jesus christ is presented, the denominational spirit overtook the spirit of love and unity
through christ. how we respond to t
as a young boy, while attending the
maramon convention which is the largest
christain gather in asia, hardly i could see the pentecostal pastors and
many believers. (for than four decades back, it may be different now). likewise, i never could see any episcopal church priests at kumbanad
i.p.c. convention, which is the largest
pentecostal gathering. ( from the bible society, i saw one csi priest in
one convention). in maramon, some of the internationaly known evangelists and
pastors like dr. kagawa of japan, dr. paul rees, dr. bob pierce (founder of the world vision) dr. e. stanly jones,
dr. edmund haggai (founder of the haggai
institute in singapore where believers-
pastors-priests-bishops have participated) etc have preached. even though, in both christian gatherings,
none other than jesus christ is presented, the denominational spirit overtook the spirit of love and unity
through christ. how we respond to t
+1
a. s. mathew (November 10, 2011)
KUNJACHAN: Why the women are prohibited in preaching? The first
evangelist who proclaimed to the whole
world about the resurrection of Jesus
was a woman. While the disciples were
far away from the tomb of Christ,
Mary went all the way to the tomb. At
the last hour of the crucifixion
event, we can find only the women. God has given all the rights and privileges
to the women to be participants of the
ministry as the Lord leads them to do.
KUNJACHAN: Why the women are prohibited in preaching? The first
evangelist who proclaimed to the whole
world about the resurrection of Jesus
was a woman. While the disciples were
far away from the tomb of Christ,
Mary went all the way to the tomb. At
the last hour of the crucifixion
event, we can find only the women. God has given all the rights and privileges
to the women to be participants of the
ministry as the Lord leads them to do.
0
a. s. mathew (November 10, 2011)
kunjachan: you might have misunderstood
the concept of unity among the believers. denominations are man-made,
but the church is the body of christ.
believers of all denominations who have
personal relationship with christ must be united. if the denominations are
merged, then their traditions will be
merged too. if you are preaching jesus
christ in an open area, even though i
may not be the member of your denomination, but i must stand with you because you are preaching the same jesus
i follow. the ecumenism of the believers is a must at this time, which
can spread the gospel of christ, also
can create a good testmony of love
in between the followers of christ of all denominations.
kunjachan: you might have misunderstood
the concept of unity among the believers. denominations are man-made,
but the church is the body of christ.
believers of all denominations who have
personal relationship with christ must be united. if the denominations are
merged, then their traditions will be
merged too. if you are preaching jesus
christ in an open area, even though i
may not be the member of your denomination, but i must stand with you because you are preaching the same jesus
i follow. the ecumenism of the believers is a must at this time, which
can spread the gospel of christ, also
can create a good testmony of love
in between the followers of christ of all denominations.
0
the praize (November 10, 2011)
@joy chembakasseril, usa. i donot disagree with your correction,my intent was, in earlier times there were people from the low and poor attracted to this commnunity as equally as high class Brahmins and these pastors,preachers' strategy were to bridge the economic divide,i also would go a step further and admit that pentecostals are among the rich class in india and globally however you correctly said, the thought behind adorning of jewellary or precious metals should not be malicious and above all should not have a spiritual color added.our friend kunjachan seems to be aggravated by the exposition of the word since he comes from a fundamental orthodox thought process and to him i would just say please wait upon the lord for more revelation of the word and deeper understanding of god's plan and have an open approach to people around than condemning and been conclusive,we all might have our own thoughts but that needs to expressed with mutual respect and inclusiveness,Blessings
@joy chembakasseril, usa. i donot disagree with your correction,my intent was, in earlier times there were people from the low and poor attracted to this commnunity as equally as high class Brahmins and these pastors,preachers' strategy were to bridge the economic divide,i also would go a step further and admit that pentecostals are among the rich class in india and globally however you correctly said, the thought behind adorning of jewellary or precious metals should not be malicious and above all should not have a spiritual color added.our friend kunjachan seems to be aggravated by the exposition of the word since he comes from a fundamental orthodox thought process and to him i would just say please wait upon the lord for more revelation of the word and deeper understanding of god's plan and have an open approach to people around than condemning and been conclusive,we all might have our own thoughts but that needs to expressed with mutual respect and inclusiveness,Blessings
0
kunjachan (November 10, 2011)
Some people are eagerly looking for the next generation to break all the mark of separation among the God's children. In western countries this ambition has almost fulfilled by now itself.Also Women preachers&teachers(1Tim.2:12)women Pastors&women without veil on head etc. are shining equally among the worldly religions and so called saved groups.Shortly they will realise, that nothing dangerous in calling Jesus,Jesus- Mary,Mary- Ra-ma,Ra-ma.This ecumenism of religious peace will reveal strongly just before the anti-Christ era. No one can defend it by any means.Only possible thing is everybody can keep themselves strictly according to the prescribed Word of God.The prophets of the new generation thoughts can't help themselves or others after death,before the Divine Judge.Only the written word of God will judge every body(Rom3:4). The days of fulfilment of Ezekiel, 7:19 has almost started. Whatever written will be realised in time without change of one jot or one tittle.Be very carefu
Some people are eagerly looking for the next generation to break all the mark of separation among the God's children. In western countries this ambition has almost fulfilled by now itself.Also Women preachers&teachers(1Tim.2:12)women Pastors&women without veil on head etc. are shining equally among the worldly religions and so called saved groups.Shortly they will realise, that nothing dangerous in calling Jesus,Jesus- Mary,Mary- Ra-ma,Ra-ma.This ecumenism of religious peace will reveal strongly just before the anti-Christ era. No one can defend it by any means.Only possible thing is everybody can keep themselves strictly according to the prescribed Word of God.The prophets of the new generation thoughts can't help themselves or others after death,before the Divine Judge.Only the written word of God will judge every body(Rom3:4). The days of fulfilment of Ezekiel, 7:19 has almost started. Whatever written will be realised in time without change of one jot or one tittle.Be very carefu
+3
a. s. mathew (November 9, 2011)
THE PRAIZE: As you have clearly indicated, let us all pray very fervently to God send a great revival
in the hearts of the young generation to see the light. God is the same yesterday and today, and His living word is the same yesterday and today.
Man-made traditions are changing from
one generation to the next, but the
the average believer is terribly and
deepled hooked to the traditions. God is going to do some shaking experiences in the Church world. Before the anti-Christian attacks were started in India,
the denominational spirit among the Christians from north to the south was
very powerful, but now we can see more
unity among the believers of all denominations, all the way from the
Pentecostals to the Roman Catholic
Church. Likewise, another revival to
crack all the traditions is urgently
needed very soon. So, let us all pray for that.
THE PRAIZE: As you have clearly indicated, let us all pray very fervently to God send a great revival
in the hearts of the young generation to see the light. God is the same yesterday and today, and His living word is the same yesterday and today.
Man-made traditions are changing from
one generation to the next, but the
the average believer is terribly and
deepled hooked to the traditions. God is going to do some shaking experiences in the Church world. Before the anti-Christian attacks were started in India,
the denominational spirit among the Christians from north to the south was
very powerful, but now we can see more
unity among the believers of all denominations, all the way from the
Pentecostals to the Roman Catholic
Church. Likewise, another revival to
crack all the traditions is urgently
needed very soon. So, let us all pray for that.
+1
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 9, 2011)
@ the praize- your observation that the pentacostals were poor is not correct altogether. The best-way to put it is that- they, some of them became poor, due to the persecution they had to face from their own family. Do you know a sizable section who got converted were from rich brahmin background. It is true they had poor converts too, so it is learnt, the church leadership had a special meeting, to denounce all expensive items being worn in church, especially ornaments, because of a precedence in bible, Jesus telling the people gathered at mt sensor, to cast-them-away. Jesus has nothing against the metal- gold and that's his creation too. But the point is that, Jesus told them, to cast-them-away only because it became a temptation to them, that they started, kneeling down and worshiping in front of them, which again is against God's wishes. Just having ornaments is fine by itself, the way you treat them makes it right or wrong but some are trying to misquote it, to their advantage!
@ the praize- your observation that the pentacostals were poor is not correct altogether. The best-way to put it is that- they, some of them became poor, due to the persecution they had to face from their own family. Do you know a sizable section who got converted were from rich brahmin background. It is true they had poor converts too, so it is learnt, the church leadership had a special meeting, to denounce all expensive items being worn in church, especially ornaments, because of a precedence in bible, Jesus telling the people gathered at mt sensor, to cast-them-away. Jesus has nothing against the metal- gold and that's his creation too. But the point is that, Jesus told them, to cast-them-away only because it became a temptation to them, that they started, kneeling down and worshiping in front of them, which again is against God's wishes. Just having ornaments is fine by itself, the way you treat them makes it right or wrong but some are trying to misquote it, to their advantage!
+2
the praize (November 9, 2011)
@asm i am in complete agreement with you,i also believe that generation next will break all these traditions and barriers and will be more effective in reaching out for christ.the fundamental thinkers,preachers and community need to be more inclusive and tolerant and should include a vision that was in christ jesus.as much i have interacted with them,they are very conclusive,elusive,exclusive, opinionated and stereotyped in thought process,thinking that god will judge humankind ruthlessly,if they donot follow strict dictums as been practised thru ages in those communities. i do not say god will be liberal during the judgement day,but i am not capable of defining how his judgement would be and on the other hand,think of the price that god paid by sacrificing his only son to redeem the whole humanity,and here we are in the 21st century,dwelling on non relevant issues.wish these people will take some time in doing some good deeds for the sake of the society.
@asm i am in complete agreement with you,i also believe that generation next will break all these traditions and barriers and will be more effective in reaching out for christ.the fundamental thinkers,preachers and community need to be more inclusive and tolerant and should include a vision that was in christ jesus.as much i have interacted with them,they are very conclusive,elusive,exclusive, opinionated and stereotyped in thought process,thinking that god will judge humankind ruthlessly,if they donot follow strict dictums as been practised thru ages in those communities. i do not say god will be liberal during the judgement day,but i am not capable of defining how his judgement would be and on the other hand,think of the price that god paid by sacrificing his only son to redeem the whole humanity,and here we are in the 21st century,dwelling on non relevant issues.wish these people will take some time in doing some good deeds for the sake of the society.
0
a. s. mathew (November 9, 2011)
THE PRAIZE: I do agree with you that the anti-ornament doctrine came into the Pentecostal and Brethren Churches to keep a social equality among the believers. When Billy Graham
started preaching in churches, he had a
gold plated watch; and the audience began to look at the watch. So, he made a decision that he will wear only a watch with black strap to avoid the
unwanted attention towards the shining
watch. If the Pastors are wearing 3 pc
suit with a red tie-shining tie-
pin in India, the believers will be looking those fancy outfit.
When non-Biblical actions are being
repeated inside the Church, it will turn as
religious traditions. While observing
the various denominations, we
can catch a lot of traditions which were started by somebody for certain convenience years back. But
those blind and misguided traditions are
deep rooted, and the religious hierarchy will declare them as "divine mandate"
THE PRAIZE: I do agree with you that the anti-ornament doctrine came into the Pentecostal and Brethren Churches to keep a social equality among the believers. When Billy Graham
started preaching in churches, he had a
gold plated watch; and the audience began to look at the watch. So, he made a decision that he will wear only a watch with black strap to avoid the
unwanted attention towards the shining
watch. If the Pastors are wearing 3 pc
suit with a red tie-shining tie-
pin in India, the believers will be looking those fancy outfit.
When non-Biblical actions are being
repeated inside the Church, it will turn as
religious traditions. While observing
the various denominations, we
can catch a lot of traditions which were started by somebody for certain convenience years back. But
those blind and misguided traditions are
deep rooted, and the religious hierarchy will declare them as "divine mandate"
+1
the praize (November 9, 2011)
@asm i have come to the conclusion that since the pentecostal community was derived from economically poor background in the earlier times, these so called pastors would have developed this idea of denouncing gold or precious metals and presented it as a doctrine to the already educationally backward pentecostal community, in turn everybody started to follow the dictum. Bible does not present this as a doctrine,i agree with you holiness needs to be from the inside out and not outside in,had that been the case we should wash ourselves before we enter the church. There are different perspective to this subject,the new jerusalem as mentioned in revelation 21 is rich with precious metals,in the OT,when Moses went to Mt SINAI,israelites gave their gold earrings to make the calf,meaning gold and precious metals were present right from the history of human race and never has God intervened and said one cannot use it,its a matter of economic liberty,something which is more individualistic.
@asm i have come to the conclusion that since the pentecostal community was derived from economically poor background in the earlier times, these so called pastors would have developed this idea of denouncing gold or precious metals and presented it as a doctrine to the already educationally backward pentecostal community, in turn everybody started to follow the dictum. Bible does not present this as a doctrine,i agree with you holiness needs to be from the inside out and not outside in,had that been the case we should wash ourselves before we enter the church. There are different perspective to this subject,the new jerusalem as mentioned in revelation 21 is rich with precious metals,in the OT,when Moses went to Mt SINAI,israelites gave their gold earrings to make the calf,meaning gold and precious metals were present right from the history of human race and never has God intervened and said one cannot use it,its a matter of economic liberty,something which is more individualistic.
+2
a. s. mathew (November 9, 2011)
God is expecting from us "internal holiness" but not " external holiness".
When the anti-ornament doctrine of
holiness was strictly enforced among the believers of Kerala, what kind of
holiness dress the Pastors used to wear?
It was "white lungi and juba". When
Oral Roberts came to Trivandrum in 1964,
bus loads of Pentecostal believers came from Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh. When I saw the sister's heavy load of
golden ornaments, I was caught in a
confusion. How this disparty in two
different states in the same denominations? Why the Pastors have
changed holiness outfit of white lungi-juba outfit to pants-
shirt-tie-suit outfit?
Those hard-headed holiness proponents
who are totally anti-ornaments in nature
must be pushed back to the old holiness
outfit by the believers. We shouldn't show any mercy to them.
God is expecting from us "internal holiness" but not " external holiness".
When the anti-ornament doctrine of
holiness was strictly enforced among the believers of Kerala, what kind of
holiness dress the Pastors used to wear?
It was "white lungi and juba". When
Oral Roberts came to Trivandrum in 1964,
bus loads of Pentecostal believers came from Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh. When I saw the sister's heavy load of
golden ornaments, I was caught in a
confusion. How this disparty in two
different states in the same denominations? Why the Pastors have
changed holiness outfit of white lungi-juba outfit to pants-
shirt-tie-suit outfit?
Those hard-headed holiness proponents
who are totally anti-ornaments in nature
must be pushed back to the old holiness
outfit by the believers. We shouldn't show any mercy to them.
+2
a. s. mathew (November 8, 2011)
sothrum: the praize can give you more
detailed answer. very briefly i must
say about that habit as "total hypocrisy". it is like swallowing the
camel but filtering the ants.
sothrum: the praize can give you more
detailed answer. very briefly i must
say about that habit as "total hypocrisy". it is like swallowing the
camel but filtering the ants.
+3
thepraize (November 8, 2011)
@sothrum,brother I understand completely your viewpoint,however,these trivial issues have caused great harm to the body of Christ than good.If you were to look into the church growth of these ipc/ag/cog nationwide, in the last 1 year forget all their years in india it would never match up to the growth, a state like Kerala has witnessed thru the efforts of liberal organisations viz Tangu brother,Tinu George et al. Bible says "I will pour out my spirit on all flesh in the last days" now does that mean only on people from IPC/AG/COG, i am left to wonder. We emphasize on non relevant issues just to hold on to our positions of pride and are not receptive to the Holy Spirit and all these organisations are now been reduced to a mere gatherings. We still point at others and proudly say,they are ritualistic,but how different are we ?? Blessings
@sothrum,brother I understand completely your viewpoint,however,these trivial issues have caused great harm to the body of Christ than good.If you were to look into the church growth of these ipc/ag/cog nationwide, in the last 1 year forget all their years in india it would never match up to the growth, a state like Kerala has witnessed thru the efforts of liberal organisations viz Tangu brother,Tinu George et al. Bible says "I will pour out my spirit on all flesh in the last days" now does that mean only on people from IPC/AG/COG, i am left to wonder. We emphasize on non relevant issues just to hold on to our positions of pride and are not receptive to the Holy Spirit and all these organisations are now been reduced to a mere gatherings. We still point at others and proudly say,they are ritualistic,but how different are we ?? Blessings
+1
sothrum (November 8, 2011)
@praize. i do not have any problem with those who wear suite and tie. don't get me wrong. i get offended when these so called ipc/ag/cog/sharon pastors who are in leadership role declares it as a biblical doctrine and also considers that those who wear them are sinners. i believe that it should be your personal decision whether to wear or not and it shouldn't be treated as a biblical doctrine. if kc thomas doesn't like it, good for him and he should just worry about policing this rule in his church and in his denomination.
@praize. i do not have any problem with those who wear suite and tie. don't get me wrong. i get offended when these so called ipc/ag/cog/sharon pastors who are in leadership role declares it as a biblical doctrine and also considers that those who wear them are sinners. i believe that it should be your personal decision whether to wear or not and it shouldn't be treated as a biblical doctrine. if kc thomas doesn't like it, good for him and he should just worry about policing this rule in his church and in his denomination.
+1
the praize (November 8, 2011)
@sothrum i will abstain from been judgemental brother,however,Bible stresses on modesty,modesty as a lifestyle.That been said,interpretation of modesty differs from people to people considering the economic status. Is it a sin to be rich, I disapprove,and can you define modesty of the rich? Difficult.. Bottomline everything needs to be done in moderation,more importantly my question is why do we not stress on good deeds ever? And even if we,the best we could do is build some private bible schools and few tailoring institutes,why can we not practice what we preach,as I mentioned in my prior comment to kunjachen why are we forgetting that we have a social responsibility to fulfill than focus on trivial issues like wearing ornaments,time all of us redefine our priorities.Blessings
@sothrum i will abstain from been judgemental brother,however,Bible stresses on modesty,modesty as a lifestyle.That been said,interpretation of modesty differs from people to people considering the economic status. Is it a sin to be rich, I disapprove,and can you define modesty of the rich? Difficult.. Bottomline everything needs to be done in moderation,more importantly my question is why do we not stress on good deeds ever? And even if we,the best we could do is build some private bible schools and few tailoring institutes,why can we not practice what we preach,as I mentioned in my prior comment to kunjachen why are we forgetting that we have a social responsibility to fulfill than focus on trivial issues like wearing ornaments,time all of us redefine our priorities.Blessings
+1
thepraize (November 8, 2011)
@asm and joy chembakasseril, usa,great way to expose and explain the myth of ornaments and holiness.
@kunjachan,please donot conveniently ignore the second part of 1 Tim 2:9,kindly understand the passage in the correct perspective the author is stressing on good deeds and not on wearing ornaments,please donot interpret the bible to your personal convenience. Also please do not limit God and His Kingdom to your limited finite knowledge.This conversation can go endlessly without been conclusive,but I want to stress emphatically that BIBLE do not teach against the use of ornaments,rather it stresses on modesty and good works,which sadly some fundamental pentecostals conveniently overlook and limit themselves to a small group claiming to be the most Holy in the sight of God and owners of Heaven !!!
@asm and joy chembakasseril, usa,great way to expose and explain the myth of ornaments and holiness.
@kunjachan,please donot conveniently ignore the second part of 1 Tim 2:9,kindly understand the passage in the correct perspective the author is stressing on good deeds and not on wearing ornaments,please donot interpret the bible to your personal convenience. Also please do not limit God and His Kingdom to your limited finite knowledge.This conversation can go endlessly without been conclusive,but I want to stress emphatically that BIBLE do not teach against the use of ornaments,rather it stresses on modesty and good works,which sadly some fundamental pentecostals conveniently overlook and limit themselves to a small group claiming to be the most Holy in the sight of God and owners of Heaven !!!
+2
sothrum (November 8, 2011)
Hope AS Mathew Or the Praize can explain this to me.
My ornaments are very cheap and are made out of plastic and it cost only 5 dollars. But the pastor who opposes wearing ornaments is wearing suite and tie (To be modest he should be wearing pants/shirt/mundu/shirt) which are definitely not the culture of Kerala. The suite and tie which are not necessarily needed are much costlier than my ornaments. Please tell me who's the biggest sinner here in this scenario?
Hope AS Mathew Or the Praize can explain this to me.
My ornaments are very cheap and are made out of plastic and it cost only 5 dollars. But the pastor who opposes wearing ornaments is wearing suite and tie (To be modest he should be wearing pants/shirt/mundu/shirt) which are definitely not the culture of Kerala. The suite and tie which are not necessarily needed are much costlier than my ornaments. Please tell me who's the biggest sinner here in this scenario?
+1
kunjachan (November 8, 2011)
Recently I could read an article, "Vaadhavum pradhivaadhavum illathe oru koottaima".Contend is don't criticise any one;In an assembly in God's name Let everybody to keep their own faith and taste in all matters.But this type koottaima shall be known as VAZhIYAMBALA KOOTTAIMA .The pastor of such koottaima has a role of security guard of the vazhiyambalam.He has no control over the visitors entering, but has to collect fees .He shall not debate with visitors but has to agree with the views of the visitors to keep the business well.but the ministers in the real church appointed vide Ep.4:11 have responsibility to teach and guide believers in the right way to ensure inclusion in the rapture.The church, the faith life and the word of God is not for joke but serious in relation to the future of human souls.Church ministers cannot ignore their responsibility to prepare the bride acceptable to Jesus Christ. Let not any of the new arguments liberalising the faith life, influence them.
Recently I could read an article, "Vaadhavum pradhivaadhavum illathe oru koottaima".Contend is don't criticise any one;In an assembly in God's name Let everybody to keep their own faith and taste in all matters.But this type koottaima shall be known as VAZhIYAMBALA KOOTTAIMA .The pastor of such koottaima has a role of security guard of the vazhiyambalam.He has no control over the visitors entering, but has to collect fees .He shall not debate with visitors but has to agree with the views of the visitors to keep the business well.but the ministers in the real church appointed vide Ep.4:11 have responsibility to teach and guide believers in the right way to ensure inclusion in the rapture.The church, the faith life and the word of God is not for joke but serious in relation to the future of human souls.Church ministers cannot ignore their responsibility to prepare the bride acceptable to Jesus Christ. Let not any of the new arguments liberalising the faith life, influence them.
+5
jobin (November 8, 2011)
oraaalkku divam 'narakam' kanichu koduthu... avide kure pastor mar kidakkunnathu kandu!!! avar vilichu parayuka anu...njan churchinte cash eduthilla eduthillaa ennnu.....
oraaalkku divam 'narakam' kanichu koduthu... avide kure pastor mar kidakkunnathu kandu!!! avar vilichu parayuka anu...njan churchinte cash eduthilla eduthillaa ennnu.....
+2
a. s. mathew (November 8, 2011)
Contd:3. If Timothy is writing today to the believers of India, he may write 'beloved, I know that you need basic transportation, so beware of buying only Maruthi and Ambassador cars. Not in anyway foreign cars like BMW-BENZ-Rolls Royce". To the believers in the U.S., he might have suggested only to buy Ford-Chrysler and GMC products. Honestly exhorting for a simple-humble and basic lifestyle for the believers. The believer's preference in dress and food is their personal choice, the Pastors are not called to judge them, which will backfire some day. God has not appointed anybody to add more in the sin list to condemn the believers.
Contd:3. If Timothy is writing today to the believers of India, he may write 'beloved, I know that you need basic transportation, so beware of buying only Maruthi and Ambassador cars. Not in anyway foreign cars like BMW-BENZ-Rolls Royce". To the believers in the U.S., he might have suggested only to buy Ford-Chrysler and GMC products. Honestly exhorting for a simple-humble and basic lifestyle for the believers. The believer's preference in dress and food is their personal choice, the Pastors are not called to judge them, which will backfire some day. God has not appointed anybody to add more in the sin list to condemn the believers.
+2
a. s. mathew (November 8, 2011)
Contd:2 perhaps the ornament issue will not prohibit the believers to participate in the Lord's supper. How this can happen in the same denomination? The book of James was written by the brother of Jesus, the first book of the New Testament. When we read chapter 2 verses 2-3, " For if there should come into your assembly a man with GOLD RINGS, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, and you pay attention to one wearing the fine clothes........ So, it is very clear that the believers in the first century used to wear ornaments. Who took that away from the Church? Timothy was brought up with humility because his devout Jewish mother taught him scripture from the very early childhood. Later on he became a follower of Christ and a close friend of Paul. He was not specifically attacking wearing ornaments, but in generalized manner touched "modest apparel-braided hair-gold and pearl-costly clothings". contd: 3
Contd:2 perhaps the ornament issue will not prohibit the believers to participate in the Lord's supper. How this can happen in the same denomination? The book of James was written by the brother of Jesus, the first book of the New Testament. When we read chapter 2 verses 2-3, " For if there should come into your assembly a man with GOLD RINGS, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, and you pay attention to one wearing the fine clothes........ So, it is very clear that the believers in the first century used to wear ornaments. Who took that away from the Church? Timothy was brought up with humility because his devout Jewish mother taught him scripture from the very early childhood. Later on he became a follower of Christ and a close friend of Paul. He was not specifically attacking wearing ornaments, but in generalized manner touched "modest apparel-braided hair-gold and pearl-costly clothings". contd: 3
+1
a. s. mathew (November 8, 2011)
The word of God says " sin is the transgression of the law". God has set
laws for us to live by, when we violate
those laws, it is a sin.
Some of the man-made sins of the 20th
century among the Churches are quite
surprising.
I went to speak in a Church in Atlanta more than 36 years back, none of the believers had "neck tie", because the
Bishop said, it is a sin.
Another group of holiness people in
Kansas (Mennonite group) I met, they will not have a mustache because it was
sin, but kept beard.
The ornament and medical care sins had
their beginning in the U.S. initiated
by the extreme holiness Churches, but they have thrown away those sins from the book years back.
Church of God in India has the headquarter in Cleveland, TN. When they
offer the Lord's supper in the U.S., it is an open
communion for everybody in the Church.
But the same denomination
The word of God says " sin is the transgression of the law". God has set
laws for us to live by, when we violate
those laws, it is a sin.
Some of the man-made sins of the 20th
century among the Churches are quite
surprising.
I went to speak in a Church in Atlanta more than 36 years back, none of the believers had "neck tie", because the
Bishop said, it is a sin.
Another group of holiness people in
Kansas (Mennonite group) I met, they will not have a mustache because it was
sin, but kept beard.
The ornament and medical care sins had
their beginning in the U.S. initiated
by the extreme holiness Churches, but they have thrown away those sins from the book years back.
Church of God in India has the headquarter in Cleveland, TN. When they
offer the Lord's supper in the U.S., it is an open
communion for everybody in the Church.
But the same denomination
+2
joy chembakasseril, usa. (November 8, 2011)
The issue about using ornaments and other costly items is not about the use of it, as far as a believer is concerned but the way how you adorn them with reference to their faith and worship in God. If the use of these expensive things becomes an embodiment of virtue, sacrificing your faith and spiritual reverence of your creator -- "cast-them-away". But nobody has a right to criticize the other after them wearing what they want, in other words there is no special rules just for ornaments itself. Expensive items have several different appearance in its form, it could be from an expensive sari, to an expensive house, to an expensive car and so on and on. My point is "just by adorning or using an expensive item does not make you an instant sinner, ready for hell", but the way how use them or the way how you treat them, makes it right or wrong.
The issue about using ornaments and other costly items is not about the use of it, as far as a believer is concerned but the way how you adorn them with reference to their faith and worship in God. If the use of these expensive things becomes an embodiment of virtue, sacrificing your faith and spiritual reverence of your creator -- "cast-them-away". But nobody has a right to criticize the other after them wearing what they want, in other words there is no special rules just for ornaments itself. Expensive items have several different appearance in its form, it could be from an expensive sari, to an expensive house, to an expensive car and so on and on. My point is "just by adorning or using an expensive item does not make you an instant sinner, ready for hell", but the way how use them or the way how you treat them, makes it right or wrong.
+3
jobin (November 7, 2011)
nammale bhodhyapeduthendaaa... ellaaaam ariyunnavan oraaal mukalil undu pastor!!! avide chellumbooo chodhikkum..
nammale bhodhyapeduthendaaa... ellaaaam ariyunnavan oraaal mukalil undu pastor!!! avide chellumbooo chodhikkum..
+2
john nedumbram (November 7, 2011)
enjkkittu thanne ente aniyan para vachu.onno rando trustum konda njanum ente pillerum jeevichu pokunnath.avideyum para paniyan irangiyal enthu cheyyum.
enjkkittu thanne ente aniyan para vachu.onno rando trustum konda njanum ente pillerum jeevichu pokunnath.avideyum para paniyan irangiyal enthu cheyyum.
0
a. s. mathew (November 7, 2011)
while filling nursing school applications for their daughters, i was unexpectedly hit with blunt criticism "what your dad doing is a sin". (my dad had a medical practice and he was doing a great sin). so i told them, i am not going to help your daughter to do the same sin. the praize: you have clearly exposed the ornament issue. two of the greatest baseless sins created by the pentecostal leaders in those days were "medical treatment" and " ornaments. when i see these religious gurus of perfect holiness wearing 3 pc suit with a red tie while ruthlesslessly avoiding lord's supper to the ornamented believers, i greatly wonder about that mental disorder. those leaders had to drink hot cumin water due to throat trouble, but if cumin is consumed in the capsule form, it was a great sin. we condemn the traditions of the episcopal churches, but how terribly we are blindly following the traditions established by the leaders due to their lack of biblical knowledge!
while filling nursing school applications for their daughters, i was unexpectedly hit with blunt criticism "what your dad doing is a sin". (my dad had a medical practice and he was doing a great sin). so i told them, i am not going to help your daughter to do the same sin. the praize: you have clearly exposed the ornament issue. two of the greatest baseless sins created by the pentecostal leaders in those days were "medical treatment" and " ornaments. when i see these religious gurus of perfect holiness wearing 3 pc suit with a red tie while ruthlesslessly avoiding lord's supper to the ornamented believers, i greatly wonder about that mental disorder. those leaders had to drink hot cumin water due to throat trouble, but if cumin is consumed in the capsule form, it was a great sin. we condemn the traditions of the episcopal churches, but how terribly we are blindly following the traditions established by the leaders due to their lack of biblical knowledge!
+1
kunjachan (November 7, 2011)
Somebody says there is no biblical teaching on ornaments, because they do not read 1 Tim.2:9 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing."Here the teaching is clear. If anyone uses costly cloths or costly car or anything costly it is not a justification to deny the teaching on ornaments.A real believer will never go for costly items to show their status.Others are not a matter in the church of god, the bride, "a garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse, a spring shut up, a fountain sealed"(Song of Solomon 4:12)
Somebody says there is no biblical teaching on ornaments, because they do not read 1 Tim.2:9 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing."Here the teaching is clear. If anyone uses costly cloths or costly car or anything costly it is not a justification to deny the teaching on ornaments.A real believer will never go for costly items to show their status.Others are not a matter in the church of god, the bride, "a garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse, a spring shut up, a fountain sealed"(Song of Solomon 4:12)
+3
the praize (November 7, 2011)
@kunjappy there is no biblical teaching on ornaments,this is an issue that was developed by early malayalee pentecostal leaders for the so called separation and holiness theory and also to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor. One also should evaluate this on cost vs value perspective,it is sad but true that this subject has been a matter of hypocisy,the so called separated community are the most ostentatious community engaged in adorning themselves with expensive attires sans gold and using perhaps the most expensive cars.What an irony !!!
@kunjappy there is no biblical teaching on ornaments,this is an issue that was developed by early malayalee pentecostal leaders for the so called separation and holiness theory and also to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor. One also should evaluate this on cost vs value perspective,it is sad but true that this subject has been a matter of hypocisy,the so called separated community are the most ostentatious community engaged in adorning themselves with expensive attires sans gold and using perhaps the most expensive cars.What an irony !!!
+1
a. s. mathew (November 7, 2011)
KUNJAPPY: I have the same question, and will be writing about it in the coming days. Those anti-ornaments prophets don't like the plain Indian dress, but jump in the western dress. Why they can't wear the local dress?
KUNJAPPY: I have the same question, and will be writing about it in the coming days. Those anti-ornaments prophets don't like the plain Indian dress, but jump in the western dress. Why they can't wear the local dress?
+2
kunjappy (November 7, 2011)
I would like to know why you oppose to wearing ornaments....
I would like to know why you oppose to wearing ornaments....
+3
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very good pastor thomas